You Can Feel it in the Hand: What Goes Into Quality Gear?

Transcript

This is an AI-generated transcript of our conversation. It has several typos and mistakes, but you’ll get the gist.

Matt Robertson  0:15  

Hey there marksman tribe. Welcome back to another episode of everyday marksman radio. This is Episode 22. And I’m your host as always, Matt Robertson, former military officer turned tech sector corporate grun,t outdoors enthusiast, shooting ner, and most importantly, you’re fried. Now in this week’s episode, I have a special guest, Cody Hamel, who is a  kind of out of nowhere guest for a show like mine. 

He popped up in the comments on one of my blog posts several weeks ago about load bearing gear. And he just threw a shout out saying nice to see somebody actually getting out there and using stuff and writing about it. And I had to ask myself who is this person? Who just made this comment under the name sewourned gear? And so I click the link, I find his Instagram profile and he just has all kinds of videos. And he’s this a very happy, quirky guy who enjoys making gear. 

So this is not a sponsored episode or anything like that. This is a straight up- This person just seemed like somebody I wanted to talk to. And his really fun backstory about how he was trained as a logger, and then jumped into actually producing gear, professionally, and now he’s off on his own and trying to do stuff. And the reason I wanted to do this episode was twofold. 

Number one, I’ve always been interested in learning how to make stuff. And I’ve toyed around in the past the idea of buying a heavy duty sewing machine and trying to make a couple of things here and there or at least customizing my own gear. I get those questions here in the interview. But also just how do people go about doing it and recognizing good Quality gear because all of us know all the big brands like your First Spears, HSGI, Esstac, and Mayflower, and many more who make great quality gear. But we don’t hear a whole lot from the little guys who just are doing it out of their garage, and with just ingenuity and know how. 

That is why I wanted to talk to Cody today. So with that, I’m gonna go ahead and step back and let you listen to the interview. Don’t forget to check back in last couple minutes. I’ll give you some my key takeaway.

Cody, welcome to the show.

Kody Hamel  2:42  

Matt, thanks for having me. It’s honor to be here. 

Matt Robertson  2:44  

Oh, it is an absolute pleasure. So I want to get started on the first question of the day, which is, tell me about your background.

Kody Hamel  2:51  

So I grew up in Minnesota, working for my dad cutting trees. That’s my real trade. It’s like climbing trees will change saw. And that’s what I grew up doing. And it’s awesome. But in school, we had a sewing class like a home ec type class. And it was really fun to to make something I’d never really made something before and it kind of sparked something. And my dad had an old singer sewing machine. So I kept kind of sewing at home. My old favorite backpack wore out and I just tried to make a new one. And I just fell in love with making stuff you know.

Matt Robertson  3:28  

So Kody, tell me what took you from sparking that passion in school to making gear professionally full time.

Kody Hamel  3:36  

I worked on my own for a couple of years and then a couple of my local Minnesota buddies ended up riding their motorcycles to San Francisco of all places, and I ended up following them out there after they had found a spot to land so and ended up enjoying it out there kind of a hip urban environment, and I got a bicycle and I wrote around the city San Francisco just looking for sewing jobs, you know. And I was able to find this really neat little business called rickshaw bag works and the dogpatch of San Francisco, met with the owner Mark Dwight, and we had a cup of coffee and hit it off and he hired me that day. And I worked for him for about three years.

Matt Robertson  4:21  

Cool. So so you kind of did the San Francisco life on this probably different from Minnesota. How was that for you?

Kody Hamel  4:27  

It was like I said, it was fun. I was young I moved out there when I was 19. And you know, I’m a pretty happy go lucky kid. It’s like wow, this was cool out here. And just you know, riding my bicycle around the city and with my backpack and it was it was fun. I wouldn’t want to go back now it’s just getting so hectic with all the tech boom and and all that but it was really fun while it lasted.

Matt Robertson  4:54  

It seems like I know a lot of companies are out in San Francisco that kind of have a similar vibe to them with me. is high quality stuff and Triple Aught Design is out there.

Kody Hamel  5:04  

Yeah. They were right next to Great shot. Excellent company.

Matt Robertson  5:08  

I’ve actually I’ve been to that shop in San Francisco, so it’s probably real close to Rickshaw then.

Unknown Speaker  5:13  

Oh, man. Yeah, that’s funny.

Matt Robertson  5:17  

So, okay, cool. So you did the San Francisco life? Kind of is that where you kind of got a lot more experience doing the selling then?

Kody Hamel  5:25  

Yes, that was like a full time job. I just worked with Mark and we would kind of just sketch up designs for a new bag like a backpack or a duffel bag or a zipper pouch, you know, simple stuff. And then I would just develop it you’d make a sample and then you use it and make tweaks and then and then go from there.

Matt Robertson  5:48  

So what was the biggest thing you learned from doing that?

Kody Hamel  5:54  

It’s it’s a lot of work to to turn an idea in your mind into finished product, like even just a simple mag pouch. And as simple as that is you got to make the thing. You got to use it and you got to tweak it. And there’s just there’s a lot that goes into bring up a product from an idea to a finished

Matt Robertson  6:16  

product. So how did you go from doing messenger bags in San Francisco to making tactical gear outdoors gear.

Kody Hamel  6:24  

So when my time in San Francisco was done, I moved back to Minnesota. And I started I met kind of got involved with a group of friends that was into a little bit of preparedness, but like shooting guns, I had never really shot guns growing up. And I’m like, Dude, this is cool. Guns are fun to shoot. And, of course, what goes with guns is your gear to carry your you know, your backpacks and your Chest Rigs and your little patches. And I I love it. It. Just go Hand in hand so well

Matt Robertson  7:01  

so tell me the story The first time you ever shooting then what happened on the first day you ever went to shooting?

Kody Hamel  7:07  

Well, there we were. A big group of friends was kind of doing like a meetup, like over the weekend, you know, different classes were being taught by different people and stuff. It was it was fun. And of course, they had a shooting class. So everybody had their guns laid out and everything was relatively safe. And you just had to stand at, I don’t know, five yards or something and shoot at the target. And I did decent, you know, nothing. Nothing too crazy, but it just felt really cool to be able to hit what you’re aiming at.

Unknown Speaker  7:41  

Just satisfying for some reason.

Kody Hamel  7:45  

And then it just kind of went from there like shooting is fun to like, taking a few training courses to like, now I carry my gun on my person. 24 seven.

Unknown Speaker  7:59  

What are you kingka

Unknown Speaker  8:02  

mostly a Glock 19.

Kody Hamel  8:07  

And I’m not ashamed of it shouldn’t be.

Matt Robertson  8:10  

It’s funny. I feel like that’s probably a question I should start asking everybody this right off the bat is like, what do you carry? What so when you started, you recognize that the head is a need for gear, what what drove you to make that first piece? Was that something that request and somebody made you just recognize a need.

Kody Hamel  8:28  

So, I mean, I, mostly when I got going, you know, on my own, like backpacks was kind of my focus. Because I I always have a hard time finding backpacks that I personally like. There’s there’s just always something that I don’t like so I’m like, Well, if I can’t find one that I like, I’m gonna make one of my own. Kind of like a classic army rock stack style that just has a platform With two bottles up front and little side water bottle pockets and

Unknown Speaker  9:06  

turned out horrible. Terrible.

Unknown Speaker  9:10  

What was wrong What? What made it terrible?

Kody Hamel  9:14  

Well, I I didn’t have a industrial sewing machine. So I had a really hard time getting through that I used that cotton canvas at a really hard time getting through the thicker seams. And I didn’t have any binding tape. So I used hot glue to seal the seams so they wouldn’t Bray and it’s just so funny. But you got to start somewhere, right? Hmm.

Matt Robertson  9:38  

So how long after that, so you started doing this as a full time gig?

Kody Hamel  9:45  

probably two or three years. From what I tried to make my first backpack to to where I went out to San Francisco. And I just showed showed my boss or to be boss stuff that I made. Like hey, I can make this and apparently it was good enough to get me a job. So I’ll take it. I didn’t get into shooting until after I moved home from San Francisco.

Unknown Speaker  10:10  

Okay. What was so what was the first thing you made once you came back?

Unknown Speaker  10:16  

Probably more backpacks. There’s always something to improve on. But, you know, I make a lot of duffel bags, different shoulder bags, lots of zipper patches, stuff like that, you know?

Matt Robertson  10:31  

And that catches up to to now where I see your Instagram stories and YouTube where you’re making precision shooting stuff. A lot of time it seems like where you’ve got slings or you’ve got bags for putting rustling rifles on and shooting bags and magazine pouches for that matter. So what’s your favorite stuff to make now?

Kody Hamel  10:51  

The beauty of it I get to make all kinds of stuff. Right now I do primarily custom stuff. People contact mostly Instagram, a little bit from YouTube and they just say, hey, I need this. I need that. So that kind of dictates what I make. You know, I’ll make a backpack for someone. I’ve made a handful of Chest Rigs. I’ve made a handful of custom plate carriers for different people. You know, duffel bags, general purpose couches,

Unknown Speaker  11:23  

you name it, you know?

Unknown Speaker  11:25  

Why the name so Jordan here?

Kody Hamel  11:30  

That’s a cool question. So, so German gear is it kind of comes from like, like the Bible a little bit, like, like Abraham, you know, kind of like, one of the guys early on, he was like a sojourner, the soldier and means to, like, temporarily dwell in kind of like a foreign land. So I guess, you know, we’re all kind of sojourning on the earth, if you will. But then of course, it’s spelled as OJ, but I so excited sp WJ Oh, you are in. So cheering gear.

Matt Robertson  12:10  

And I’ll definitely be leaving a link down to your website in the show notes this episode to, you know, for somebody who I am not a

Unknown Speaker  12:18  

I’m a lie.

Matt Robertson  12:19  

I’m a gear nerd. And you know that that much is true. But how do I recognize how do I recognize something that’s well made? Like I know like there’s certain companies that you generally are going to be able to trust more for something quality but what makes something more quality? How would you recognize that?

Kody Hamel  12:36  

I love this question. Quality speaks for itself. Like if you pick up a pair of Red Wing boots or something, you you just pick it up and you’re like, Oh my gosh, this is a quality piece of gear.

Unknown Speaker  12:53  

But I mean to get more into it.

Kody Hamel  12:57  

Honestly, you feel it. You feel it in the fabric. Like you can tell good quality Cordura versus like a lot of the Chinese fabric has a really cheap kind of vinyl backing to it and that ends up you know flaking off and it just feels kind of it doesn’t feel good. You look at the stitching you know higher quality bags tend to have a little bit tighter stitching and then look at the stress points on the shoulder straps or on the certain webbing, high stress points it should be backpack you know lots of thread laid down. It should have form and function each thing should should look good. It should function good. It should do what it needs to do well. And yeah, quality speaks for itself.

Matt Robertson  13:49  

Okay, so when you want to make a design, what’s the first thing he starts thinking about? You mentioned you want it to be for involves function. So I guess that’s where do we start?

Kody Hamel  14:01  

Right, when I’m designing a new bag or, or chestrig, or whatever, I take everything I want to carry and put it in a pile. And that kind of gives me an idea of how big it needs to be. Maybe a couple different pockets that that’s what I start with. And then you just think about stuff. I think I don’t spend a ton of time on sketching stuff out. I get kind of a general like super sloppy sketch. And then I just start cutting pattern pieces. I usually start with like the foundational piece like the back piece of a backpack or something and made sure everything is square. And then you just start building everything like a puzzle piece around that. Making sure every piece fits the next and you kind of just take it from there.

Matt Robertson  14:56  

So it’s kind of so you say it’s kind of like a puzzle then you just kind of have to visualize what you want the end to look like and get there. Right? How many how many times does it take to do something like if you want to make a backpack and you’re just going to have this idea how many iterations might you go through to get there?

Unknown Speaker  15:16  

I’ve made so many different backpacks. And I’ve thrown away so many patterns. That just didn’t work. You know, I’m still in the process. I’m by no means an expert. My favorite

Kody Hamel  15:31  

backpack company is mystery ranch out of Bozeman, Montana. Oh, yeah,

Unknown Speaker  15:36  

I’ve been there.

Unknown Speaker  15:38  

Okay, Dana Gleason. I’ve never met him, I hope to one day but he is lightyears ahead of this this little kid. But like I say, yeah, it takes a lot, a lot of trial and error.

Unknown Speaker  15:54  

But you got to put in the work. And you know, you don’t get to get there by not doing it.

Unknown Speaker  15:59  

Yes, that’s Amen to that.

Matt Robertson  16:03  

You know, I’m not gonna lie. I am curious now because I have toyed with the idea of my wife of what if I got a sewing machine and kind of assorted modifying some of the stuff I already own, for instance, I have a backpack, have many backpacks in the bag nerd. But I have one from Finnish company sobota that I would love to add like a little sleeve for my x. And after that’d be a really handy way to carry my axe. But that’s a few layers of cordera on top of what’s already been there. So I mean, where do I start? Like if I want to make my own gear, like where do I start?

Kody Hamel  16:41  

Well, I would say go for it. There’s it’s a big world out there and there’s room for everybody like so don’t worry about I mean, I try not to worry about competition. I just try to make a good product and you know, people like it. They will buy it

Unknown Speaker  17:00  

So that’s something to think about.

Kody Hamel  17:03  

But as far as getting going, my first machine that I got that I still run each and every day is the Adler walking foot machine. And we’re talking industrial machines here. So there’s a couple different varieties, there’s just like your, I believe it’s called a drop stitch. That’s just like a conventional sewing machine. The needle just goes up and down. Then there’s the needle feed machine where the needle bar actually helps to feed the fabric through it runs back and forth. And then the heaviest, the heaviest duty machine is the walking foot machine where that seat and the needle bar actually helped walk and pull that fabric so it’s it’s really good for sewing through thick layers of fabric through you know, foam and shoulder straps and stuff like that. And you can do, you can do all kinds of stuff you don’t want to so underwear away It but but it’s really good for, you know, quarter in gear related stuffs, you know, gun belts and stuff like that. Okay, so I got my current walking foot industrial machine on Craigslist for like 700 bucks, made sure it worked, you know, before I bought it, and I haven’t had any trouble with it. It’s a beautiful machine. It’s super old and I love it. So that’s, that’s a good place to start. Get the right machine for the job. There’s, you know, sewing machine mechanics are pretty few and far between these days. But if you can find somebody in the industry, maybe even go to your local upholstery shop or something where they have industrial sewing machines and just like show them what kind of stuff you want to sew through and see if they have ideas look on Craigslist cuz you don’t you just gotta you don’t want to spend all this money In a brand new machine, just like get something, play with it and and see, see how it goes for you.

Matt Robertson  19:06  

You know, in researching for when we were going to talk, I was looking into machines like that. And it seems like the advice is really commonly to go find some old machine that’s been used because they’re built to last forever and just make sure it’s running.

Unknown Speaker  19:21  

Right? Yep, that’s what I did. works great. Earlier you mentioned in industrial

Matt Robertson  19:26  

sewing machine. So I assume that’s what we’re talking about. Now, I I’m not familiar with the Adler. I know a lot of pictures. I see jukey is another one, but I’m assuming that we’re talking heavy duty at that point. So you can’t really use that for other stuff, though.

Kody Hamel  19:40  

Well, different tools are set up to do different things. I mean, you can you can use different thread weights and you have to change the tension and I’m not super good on the mechanical side. But generally industrial machines are set up like Each machine is kind of set up for this type of selling, it’s trying to do just kind of like rifles like you, you might have an AR with a short barrel with a red.on it and then you might have your bolt gun with a really big scope on it. You know?

Matt Robertson  20:16  

Okay, that’s good to know. Because in, in this conversation with my wife, I was like, yeah, we should totally get this, this big selling machine and she’s interested in kind of making dresses and things so it’s probably overkill 10. So aside from the Adler, which you got, is there any other machines you might recommend somebody to start with?

Kody Hamel  20:33  

There is I have four machines, I have a serger or overlock machine, walking foot machine. And then I have a needle feed machine, which I do 90% of my selling on and it’s a high lead. And according to my sewing machine guy, he said don’t get sucked into like the brand, necessarily, because a lot of just like in car parts lot of companies use the same guts. And then they just like to put their name on it. So my high lead machine has like Japanese it’s which comes from China, the highly does, but the guts of the machine come from like Japan, a lot of them. So as long as it’s, you know, a professional, industrial sewing machine, you know, from what I’ve seen, you should be pretty good to go.

Matt Robertson  21:24  

Now, as far as making patterns, like when you got started, was there any patterns you kind of got started with? Or do you kind of do it all yourself?

Kody Hamel  21:32  

No, I didn’t use patterns. And like I say, I’m not the sharpest knife in the box. I didn’t even really think about patterns. I just tried to start cobbling stuff together and I probably learned stuff like the really hard stupid way.

Unknown Speaker  21:52  

But, but you got to start somewhere, right?

Kody Hamel  21:55  

You know, once you kind of get the fundamentals of how to live layout things and how to make your own patterns, then you you know, you’re off to the races. Now I can turn a sketch and just have some basic dimensions and boom, you got a pattern.

Matt Robertson  22:11  

So when you said you learn things the hard way, what was what was the biggest lesson you learned the hard way.

Kody Hamel  22:17  

So, anything you’re making, everything has to match up, right? And everything has to be like, like, when you’re building a building, everything has to be like plumb and square, right? Everything has to match up. And I just didn’t understand how to do that. And I’m still not perfect at it, but you can use notches. You fold the fabric and cut a little notch in the fabric usually like in the centers of stuff. So you have a reference point

Unknown Speaker  22:51  

of keeping things true. And you know, helping stuff line up correctly. It’s a proposal that’s what it is. Now are there any

Matt Robertson  23:02  

if someone wants to get into doing this other any kind of online communities or resources or anything like that, that people can go to to kind of get started? Or is it all DIY

Unknown Speaker  23:15  

great question.

Kody Hamel  23:18  

I’m not I Oh boy. That’s a great question us sellers are few and far between I feel like selling is such like an underground mysterious world. Like people’s grandma like used to so like people might know a guy who sells but man it just seems like it’s such a rare like, secretive thing that from my experience, it’s hard to find other people who are into selling much less like, like share information. I’m not super like techie on the internet. So maybe there is You know, sewing forums and stuff, I’m just not there. But the best thing that helps me is I’m a gear nerd too. It’s just like looking at other other gear. Like, whenever I see somebody have a backpack on, I’m like, Whoa, like, let me like take off your backpack and let me look at it for like two hours and study it. And, you know, every like going to the sporting goods stores always awesome. Like, I just like, look at how everything is made, and you just kind of get ideas on, on how stuff is put together. And so looking at looking at other people’s gear is huge. For ideas and

Unknown Speaker  24:40  

stuff. Have you ever taken something apart to figure that out? Are you kind of

Unknown Speaker  24:45  

all the time? Okay,

Matt Robertson  24:47  

so you very Catholic, it was it was a stitch Ripper? Was that called? seam ripper?

Unknown Speaker  24:51  

Yes. Being a rapper.

Matt Robertson  24:54  

Yep. So you had just disassemble it into all the little component parts and be like Okay, got it.

Unknown Speaker  25:01  

Exactly Yep,

Matt Robertson  25:03  

I feel like I would be that would conflict so hard with my my gear nerd because I wouldn’t want to sacrifice a piece of gear.

Kody Hamel  25:11  

I know but sometimes like, for for packs and stuff I got a fair handle on for more clothing and stuff that’s when I’m like sacrificing clothes because I’m not as good at at apparel I make my own pants and sweatshirts and jackets. And I actually just bought a cheap jacket at the thrift store. And I liked how it fits. So I’m going to cut this nice jacket into pieces and lay it flat on the table and make a pattern out of it.

Matt Robertson  25:42  

It just reminds me when I was a kid and I would I would like took apart my friends Nintendo to see how to see how it works. I’m air quoting

Unknown Speaker  25:48  

exactly the same thing.

Unknown Speaker  25:54  

Of course I I don’t remember if I could figure out how to put it back together again.

Unknown Speaker  26:00  

Sorry. Oh, I know. I’ve been there. I’ve been there too. You get stuck.

Matt Robertson  26:04  

But but it was it is one of the nice things. I think the first time I ever built an AR as an example. You know, that was where you really saw how it all came together. I feel like I didn’t get it until I had to buy all the individual pieces and assemble.

Unknown Speaker  26:19  

Yes.

Matt Robertson  26:20  

All right, Cody, when it comes to gear, what is something that you wish people would stop doing?

Unknown Speaker  26:29  

Wow.

Unknown Speaker  26:31  

I wish people would stop doing.

Unknown Speaker  26:36  

I mean, people can do whatever they want. I’m not going to tell somebody what to do and what not to do.

Unknown Speaker  26:45  

I mean, I get frustrated

Unknown Speaker  26:48  

by cheap gear gear that’s not made well.

Kody Hamel  26:54  

Because that’s like what what’s the point making stuff takes so much time, effort, energy and money. Like what’s the point of making something that that doesn’t function well for what it’s designed for, and you know, typically stuff that’s made in America, especially like tactical gear tends to be like pretty rock solid because people take pride in that, that they’re making it themselves in America. And

Unknown Speaker  27:23  

But anyway, just, I don’t know, cheap gear kind of bothers me because it just, it just bothers me.

Matt Robertson  27:30  

Yeah, I feel like I get that. I mean, I see that not just in gear, but just across the board where someone wants something. But then they want to go get to they will get the knockoff one of it. It’s just not made as well, like you said, like, you can feel the material isn’t as nice, or this still looks loose. And then it’s going to hold up for like, you know, a few months worth of use, you know, whether or not that actually works out for them depends on how much they actually use it versus

Unknown Speaker  27:57  

right you know,

Matt Robertson  28:00  

I put it I put the terms of optics, what I’ve seen people do optics in the past, which is they’ll buy something super cheap. And they’ll put it on the rifle. And at the never shoot the rifle, they’ll never know any better. But when they take something serious competition or a training course and then it fails on them, then they’ll go buy another the same object, you know, and they’ll do that three times. By the time they got to the end of that the amount of money you spent on three of those would have bought you one decent one that will last you the life of the rifle and then the next one.

Unknown Speaker  28:29  

Right. Amen. All right,

Matt Robertson  28:34  

cool. All right, Cody. That’s actually all I’ve got. So how do people get ahold of you? Like, what’s the best way to get ahold of Cody someone wants to get something made.

Kody Hamel  28:43  

So I do primarily most of my stuff on Instagram. My Account channel is so German gear. That’s SEWJOUR m gear sojourned gear up. Send me a direct message and we can go from there. I do have a website sojourn gear calm. I only have two things on the website, but it has my email and contact information there as well. And that’s the two main places.

Matt Robertson  29:16  

Okay. And I’ll definitely put links to those in my show notes here so people can find that.

Unknown Speaker  29:21  

Sure.

Matt Robertson  29:22  

All right, Cody. Well, it’s been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you very much taking the time.

Unknown Speaker  29:28  

Matt, I like you from the first post I read on your everyday marksman website. So keep up the good work, man. Thank you appreciate it.

Matt Robertson  29:50  

You know, I love highlighting stories of everyday people who are doing cool stuff. And I would love to do a lot more of that in the future. This is after all, Everyday marksman, not the professional industrial grade marksman or industrial scale production marksman. We are the podcast for everyday folks doing cool stuff. So talking to Cody was just a good time. There’s a lot didn’t make in this conversation just to keep the interview to a manageable length. But I hope you enjoyed it. Now I had a couple of good takeaways from this one. But I want to start with what I thought was the most important one. And that is quality gear speaks for itself. You know, Cody made the point that you can feel it in a nice well made piece of kit when you pick it up and touch it you can you can feel the material you can feel the weight of it, you can see how well it’s put together. And it just seems like it’s going to last a lot longer for you versus something maybe you paid a fraction of the price for but it starts frame within the first week and You using it. So that’s takeaway number one is that by quality gear because you know it’s going to be made right and it’s going to last you forever. As long as you do your parts take care of it, it’s going to last very, very long time. Now number two out of this one, and I’m only gonna have two big takeaways. But number two, is that sometimes you just have to get out there and try it. I love that Cody talked about just getting out there and trying to make something and having turned out terribly, but that was okay. Because he learned from his mistakes. He kept trying at it and eventually got a job actually producing gear, backpacks and bags for company professionally, where he learned the ins and outs and then came back to do it for himself and he’s still learning. As you know, I say all the time. mastery is a long path. You don’t just get to it immediately. You have to put the time in, day in, day out doing things And then learning from it. Now behind the scenes and this one, Cody and I have been working on an ammunition pouch for use with precision rifles. So if you are new to the show then just to catch you up in this one, I am slowly working my way into precision rifle shooting, doing prs and all that kind of stuff. And while all of my current gear is built around tactical shooting with air fifteens 30, round mags, prs is a little bit different. So I approached Cody with an idea and we’ve been going back and forth on it. So be nice little way to carry some long range magazines a ICS format if you know what that means to competition or even more of a tactical use because I always try to think dual purpose in the future. More info on that in the future as it comes to fruition. But for now, I want to say thank you very much for listening to today’s episode. If you liked what you heard, I only have one call to action for you. I’m not going to give you a long laundry list of things you could do for me. So here’s the one thing that you could do right now, to help me out. share it with a friend. Go ahead, listen to more episodes if you want to be sure that you like what I’m doing here. I hope you do. But here’s my one thing I would love for everyone out there to do. Share this episode or any other episode that you liked with a friend. Help us get the word out there and help us grow. Alright, that is it for me this week, everyday marshman tribe. I will catch you next week. Have a wonderful weekend. I’ll talk to you later.